Ep. 7 - Tiffany’s Story: Miracles in the Midst of Struggles - The Loss of a Sibling, The Search for the Father She Never Knew, Infertility & Miscarriage, Divorce and More

00:18 - Melissa (Host)

Welcome to This Is My Story, where everyday women share their stories of struggles and setbacks that have shaped their lives. I'm your host, Melissa Teutsch. In today's episode, my childhood friend, Tiffany Sumrall, now a therapist, mom and wife, shares with us not only her story of struggles and heartaches, but her story of miracles. She touches on the loss of her twin brother at the age of three, her search for her biological father, the pain of infertility and miscarriage, her journey to parenthood, the ending of her 18-year-long marriage and more. Join me for an intimate and candid conversation as Tiffany shares her deeply personal and inspiring journey of resilience, growth and the pursuit of authentic happiness. Before we dive into today's episode, don't forget to follow us on our social media and subscribe to us. Wherever you listen to your podcast, you can find all our social media links, as well as more information about us, at ThisIsMyStoryPodcast.com.

01:22 - Tiffany (Host)

My name is Tiffany and this is my story. 

01:27 - Melissa (Host)

I don't think I've talked to you since high school. It is crazy that is so long ago. The people that I haven't talked to in a long time that I'm interviewing, their voices sound different to me. I'm like in my head you sounded different. You like my memory, you sounded different. Or maybe that's just growing up and maturing and using a little bit of a professional voice. 

01:55 - Tiffany (Host)

Maybe Maybe I also don't live in Louisiana anymore, so probably my southern accents waned quite a bit. That makes a big difference. I don't think you sound the same either, but I think we capture people in our memories based on and so that's how you sound to me. You sound like my middle school best friend. Yes, not adult Mom Melissa. 

02:21 - Melissa (Host)

Yeah, I know it's crazy how you like, yeah, everybody is just frozen in this one time and then you're like wait, that's not how they are anymore. They've grown up. But you mentioned middle school, best friend. I do have to say thinking back, because I always try to think of you know what is something I can say at the beginning of every interview, because these are all people I know. That kind of build in how I know this person and kind of just brings back some memories. You, oh my gosh, I'm going to make myself cry saying this. Middle school was so tough for me Me too and I felt like you were like such an awesome friend and I did not reciprocate that as I should have, and I felt like a lot of times I was just striving to be somebody I was not. I don't remember it that way. So thank you for that, for being the friend that I didn't deserve. Here's a deal. 

03:16 - Tiffany (Host)

I didn't. I don't remember it that way because I remember you being a good friend to me too. Like I don't remember, goodness gracious, middle school was hard for me for a lot of different reasons. We'll talk about some of that in a little bit. But there are two people who stick out during that time, and it's you and Ms Jennifer Laird Rader, and you two were a very constant for me through fourth, fifth, sixth grade, seventh into seventh grade, and so anything that you might remember that impacts you, that you have regrets about, please don't, because I don't hold on to that. I don't remember that. 

03:57 - Melissa (Host)

Oh, that makes me feel better. I just you know. You look back on your life and you're like gosh. Middle schoolers are such jerks, and I was one of those. Sometimes, you know, we take advantage of the people in our life that we shouldn't have. 

04:14 - Tiffany (Host)

So, anyway, there are other people who made my life hell and that probably overshadowed any kind of pettiness that maybe we encountered. So don't, don't sweat that stuff. 

04:27 - Melissa (Host)

Oh yeah, I was not expecting to get all emotional right here at the beginning, geez. 

04:32 - Tiffany (Host)

I love you, so I only have loving, good memories for you. 

04:35 - Melissa (Host)

So, no, no worries, no worries, open this up with a therapy session. Okay, so we'll just get into it. I know that you are a twin and that he was born with health issues. We didn't talk about it because, like I said, middle school you don't dive deep into each other's lives. It's, you know, maybe middle schoolers do now, but I don't feel like we, you know, as middle schoolers, could really have that kind of mature relationship to talk about the tough stuff. So I didn't really know much about him. But I know you had mentioned him a little bit, so can you go back and tell me about him and just that story with him? How long was he in your life? 

05:22 - Tiffany (Host)

Yeah, Zachary and I were born premature and both of us born with significant health issues. His were greater than mine. The doctors, you know, advised my mom to like just leave us at the hospital because there was no hope. And my mom was a woman of faith and just said you know what? I just I just believe my God is bigger than that. And Zachary lived for three and a half years and there were times where he was in the home and then there was a time there was times when he was in a convalescent home which is called Holy Angels. It's still there in Louisiana, but he has what I now have come to know as cerebral palsy. I do not believe. In 1980. 1983, there was a name for that he also had hydrocephalus, which is like fluid buildup on the brain, and he was blind, also in one of his eyes. So my brother was never a functioning toddler. 

06:17

I was walking and talking early and he lied around like an infant and so our relationship was nonverbal, it was a spiritual relationship. I remember him. People say you can't remember that early. I call bull on that. I do remember my brother, not just pictures of him. I remember the way he smelled. I remember the way his voice sounded, even though he wasn't verbal. I can remember his vocalizations and we were affectionately referred to as peanut butter and jelly. We were like two at the convalescent home when my mom would take me to visit him, and I actually have two peanut butter and jelly rag dolls that I have kept all these years. I wore ours. Mine is worn and faded and his is brand new because he couldn't play, but I would play with him and he died when we were three and a half, so in July prior to my fourth birthday, and I don't remember getting the news that my brother died, but I remember the day going to the funeral home and saying goodbye to him one last time. 

07:29 - Melissa (Host)

So how did his death affect you as a three year old? Do you remember other than going to the funeral home? Do you remember those feelings? 

07:36 - Tiffany (Host)

Yeah, I definitely remember that. I always remember, felt as if, like, a part of me died with him. There was something very visceral in the way that feels when you have somebody tied you on a very genetic level and a spiritual level that's completely ripped from apart in a place that's developmentally impossible to understand. And so I remember being incredibly sad and over the years, even today, my brother has been dead for 39 years. So 39 years in July this July was 39 years and even still it will get to be like the days leading up to his anniversary of his death and I will get this pit in my stomach and I will either look it up and like it's got to be close or somebody will reach out to me and be like, just let it reach, thinking about you today and I know, I know it in my soul on the anniversary of his death. 

08:39

And all the years growing up I remember just feeling that, even as a small child, and not understanding. There was many, many times over the years, for a lot of different reasons, not understanding why it my brother died and I did not which is a very sad thought Like I thought I should have been the one that died why he couldn't stay with me, why we couldn't have both gone, and so that's a that's a huge impact. And, being family of faith like grew up in the church you know, being Southern Bible Belt churchgoers I was always told, like you know, he's in heaven with Jesus and God needed him and like all these platitudes people give people who are grieving that are not helpful, because then I felt like well, why did Jesus need him, I need him, and that that was really hard for me as a small child to really understand. 

09:27 - Melissa (Host)

So you said that the hospital told your mom that she should leave both of you. What health problems did you have? 

09:35 - Tiffany (Host)

So I had underdeveloped lungs. So because we were premature, both only two pounds at birth and I had my lungs most premature babies lungs are underdeveloped so it underdeveloped lungs and could not breathe on my own for a while and I also have have my. The way my legs grew because I was premature, they were had not fully developed for toes to point straight ahead, so my toes naturally point outward, coming up. There's always a problem for me. I've trained myself now to walk with toes ahead. But my legs were deformed. I mean there was some deformity and the doctors begged my mom even as a when I was younger to like let them re break them and do surgery, but she was so afraid of like the risk factors for that so we never did that. But mostly the lung issues and but being so tiny in 1980 where they don't really have a lot of interventions, there just wasn't a whole lot of hope for babies are size who were as premature as we were. 

10:35 - Melissa (Host)

Now for Zachary. I know that with that condition, the fluid on the brain that they often times now will do like a shot or something like that Was that an option back then, or it was just it wasn't going to work? 

10:49 - Tiffany (Host)

I honestly don't remember. It seems like if he may have had a shot placed at some point but it was maybe ineffective. I honestly cannot remember. It is not a discussion we've I've really had with my mom, but there's a chance that may not have been effective. So there was a risk outweighed the effect efficacy of it and so possibility to is why that didn't happen. 

11:11 - Melissa (Host)

I know that you grew up with a single mom for the most part. How is that you didn't know who your dad was growing up? How is that? Not having a father figure in your life or not having, did you always feel like something was missing, not knowing where the other half of you, where that came from or who you were Did it make you question your identity? Yeah, absolutely. 

11:41 - Tiffany (Host)

There was always a part of me because I lost my twin brother. I felt that my only person who is truly mine was gone, and not knowing my dad also created a whole sense of like, detachment from self. And, as a backstory, my mom was married and I had a father whose name I carried until I got married. He adopted me he actually adopted my twin brother too, before his passing, and he was in my life until I was until the summer before seventh grade, and he was abusive. He not only did not have my quote unquote real dad, this other man who was supposed to be a father to me was incredibly. He was an evil person. And so there were so many things, so much questioning why I didn't deserve a dad, why I didn't. You know what. Did I do wrong to not have someone in my life to love me, take care of me? How? 

12:41 - Melissa (Host)

Did that affect middle school, high school, Tiffany? I know that study after study after study shows that girls not having father figures or strong father figures, or having close relationships with their fathers can really affect their relationships with guys, with others growing up or even who they choose. As a spouse, I'm so adamant with my husband from day one that you've got to do stuff with her. You've got to bond with her, with Juliette. I don't want her to go looking for love in all the wrong places. You know you hear that song, so how did that affect you? 

13:20 - Tiffany (Host)

What we know about attachment styles is that it starts developing at birth from the attachments we have with our parents of origin. So I did not have a parent of origin in lieu of a father and so of course my attachment issues were skewed. I think that. Well, first of all, I experienced depression before there was a word for that, in seventh grade. That was on the tail end of sexual abuse by the man I just mentioned. Seventh grade was already really hard, being, you know whatever, 13 years old and awkward and it's all all these things. And then I had depression and I remember very specifically in the seventh grade that was probably the first time that I thought about committing suicide. I did not know then how to do that. I did not know what to do. I remember there's a good friend of ours I don't know if she would remember this who actually was at my house one day and I was having just a really dark day and I was going to take a bunch of pills and she like knocked them out of my hands, like made a huge mess on the floor and told on me and then went to school and told one of her I went junior high guidance counselor and that was the first time the news of my abuse came out, but nothing was ever done for that. 

14:36

For a variety of reasons, things are not as they are now as far as mandatory reporting, but that was my first experience with depression. I did not have a word, a name for it. I got counseling and I would say that off and on over the years that was helpful. But in answering your question, you know I did seek out attention from boys basically any boy that would show me attention. But also, in an incredibly palpable way, I was terrified of men, and so it was just this really difficult conflict for me where I had a boyfriend or had boyfriends off and on, starting in junior high. I mean, let's be honest, Chad Bradley was my boyfriend since preschool, but then Chad Bradley and I moved along in about fifth or sixth grade. But in junior high you know real boyfriends who like wanted to kiss and hold hands. That terrified me, absolutely terrified me. I would be like a ball of stress inside, and so that was a huge conflict in learning how to trust people and learning how to not put myself in positions in which I would be vulnerable. 

15:47 - Melissa (Host)

You know you're talking about that happening in seventh grade and I don't remember that at all. I don't know how I how I missed that. I had to have known that I don't know. 

15:58 - Tiffany (Host)

My mom kept it quiet. For the most part it wasn't public knowledge. People who knew were like our close circle, but many of my close friends I mean the friend that was referencing was Cyndi Bearden and she I don't even. I say she might not remember, she may not. It wasn't public knowledge. It wasn't something we talked about. You know, growing up in the 80s and then the early 90s, there were just certain things in the South you didn't talk about, and childhood abuse was the one of them. You know any we I grew up at least where things that happened in your home you don't talk about outside the home. Yep. 

16:34 - Melissa (Host)

Growing up knowing that you didn't know who your father was. Yeah, did you ever dream about finding him, or think one day I'm going to find him? 

16:42 - Tiffany (Host)

All the time and you had asked about being raised by a single mom and not having a father figure. My mom, you know, we were in church all the time. So there were men in my life who taught me things Connie and Becky Harris's dad, Joe, is the one who taught me how to ride a bicycle, and my now stepdad taught me how to drive a car. So there are men who filled in the filled in those gaps for me in in really healthy ways that, I don't know, gave me some hope. But dreaming who my dad was I mean it was constant I would have like being a being in church and like a new person would walk in and church and be like could that be him? I would speculate, I would draw conclusions, like there was kids in school who I would be like we kind of have similar facial features, maybe they're my sibling, maybe they're my cousin, and so I would like fantasize about things like that. And there is a movie I wish I could remember and I watched in college. But in this movie it's very much about a young it's a meta young man who never knew his father and he shares about how he he would sit at this ice corner, ice cream shop and daydream that his father would walk in and buy him an ice cream cone. And that movie just wrecked me Cause I'm like I know exactly what that was like because I did just imagine somebody walking up and saying I'm yours, you're mine and we live happily ever after. And that was incredible. Oh man, Richard Geer. 

18:16

I fantasize that Richard Geer was my father, Kenny Rogers. I fantasize that Kenny Rogers was my dad growing up and so there was people who I was like it could be him, I don't know, and I had no information about who my father was. And my mom did that as a way to protect me. For what? For her own reasons, and I don't fault her for that. My mom did the best that she could for what she had, the information she had. There's a lot of shame, I believe, involved with why she didn't share that information with me. But yeah, there is so much speculation but also a lot of heartache. I will say that there was just a certain level of emptiness, losing my brother and not having my dad just left behind, an emptiness that I probably would not have been able to verbalize at 7, 12, 21 years old. As a therapist, I recognize it now in doing other work with people and in my own personal therapy work. 

19:23 - Melissa (Host)

What prompted you to start searching for your dad? This was just a few years ago, right yeah? 

19:29 - Tiffany (Host)

I was in middle of graduate school, getting my licensed mental health degree, a master's degree, and we were doing lifespan. So we were talking about our life history and we were doing genograms. Genograms are therapeutic charts, essentially of your family of origin. Mine was grossly one-sided. All I had was my mother's side of the family. That was unacceptable to me. So actually my professor made some interactions about not knowing your family of origin and we had a coupon code because of grad school for ancestry DNA. I was like, well, what the heck, let's try this. And so, yeah, I sent off the spit and it was the longest six weeks of my life probably. Did you tell your mom you were doing it? No, I couldn't tell her. First of all, I told my husband, my then husband John, who was very supportive in that endeavor. I said this could kill my mom, this could break her heart. But I knew that I didn't want to upset her unnecessarily because what if it came back and I found nothing and we were no worse for the wear right, then there's no reason to upset her. So I just was like I'm just going to not say anything for now. So I waited that six weeks, kept it a secret. And then what did you find? 

20:55

I got the results on a Wednesday night. I was at church and I got the results and I sped home to get on my computer because I was looking at them on my phone and found nothing significant. I did not know how to interpret these test results. I was so confused. Nothing stuck out to me. I was able to easily pick out my mom's cousins who our family has been close to I've known them a whole life. They showed up and so I was like, okay, I can pick out, and I was able to recognize anybody that shared a match with that. Lady cousin of my mom's was obviously mom's relative, so I could easily differentiate who was not my dad's side of the family. But I could not make sense of who could have been and none of the names were making sense or ringing a bell to me, and so I actually reached out. I was on a Facebook group at that time for ancestry DNA. People called search angels and they help you find people or help you make sense or interpret your test results, and so I reached out. A lady said I would love to help you do this. So Wednesday night at my results I reached out to her on a Friday and by Saturday or by Sunday I knew who my father was Because we found one. One match who was very strong, was my strongest match, was a man named with the last name, alan. Did not make any sense to me, did not know who this person was, but she was able to this. This wonderful angel search angel was able to differentiate. She's like this is what these numbers mean. He's probably either he could be your like Uncle, but maybe farther out. So she, she knew she was somebody close, so that was huge. 

22:37

I messaged this gentleman and he said can you call me? So I called him and I just said this is who I am. This is where I grew up. This is when I was born. This is what ancestry DNA is telling me. So I just gave him my very basic information. He said well, okay, I have with me. I, my name is David. I have with me my niece, Reina, and we think that one of Reina's two brothers is your father. And they were like so tell us again when you're born. And I went over that again and I and so they were like what can't be this brother? Because he was incarcerated at the time in Louisiana Penitentiary. And she said so it can only be this other person. And I was like, well, you guys know my mom? No, we do not. And I was like, okay, this is huge risk. They were like that's the only person it could be. This man David would have would be my great uncle, my grandfather's brother, Reina, would be my step aunt if the information they were giving me was correct. And so they were like let us do some digging, we'll get back to you. So that was like me. 

23:40

Probably Saturday, on Sunday, they call me again. We have a big, another big Chat and they're telling me things about the family and just different things. I sent them a ton of pictures of myself and they started sending pictures back and For the first time in my life I knew who I looked like. I knew these people were my people because I look exactly like my aunts, and so that was mind-blowing. Oh, so they gave me a number. They said this is the last no number of this gentleman, okay. And I was like okay, and they were like what are you gonna do? And I said I don't know. So I had everything I needed me had of the information. I had the phone number, had the name, and I was Really scared, like if this is all this is that Walking around the corner from the ice cream shop moment for me, and I couldn't take the step. 

24:29

So I called my mom that Sunday night and I said I believe that I found my dad and I told her everything. I just told you about grad school, about ancestry DNA but I've been waiting six weeks and about the test results. And I asked her do you know this man? And she said no, and I said well, that's his nickname, do you know this birth name? And she said that doesn't ring a bell to me. And I said well, mom, the ancestors and genetics don't lie, dna doesn't lie. And and she said it doesn't ring a bell. I said well, I'm sorry if this is hurtful for you, but I really mean a lot to me if you could just give me some sort of confirmation, because I plan on calling him. And so she asked me to talk her through it again and I started like saying names, and so she was like okay, my mom. Then it rang a bell that she had dated this man, but she did not think that it would have been possible for him to have Parenthood me, fathered me, if that makes sense. 

25:30

Mm-hmm but she said it was a long time ago. I don't, I have nothing for you. I essentially. So she wasn't really upset with me. She just basically was like, what do you hope to gain here? And I just said I just want to know, I just need to know. And so she said what if he doesn't want anything to do with you? And I said at least I'll still know, you know. And so, anyway, so on Monday at work I had a break in clients I was a substance abuse counselor at the time and I call that number and nobody answered and I just left a voicemail. I said hi, my name is Tiffany Heff and I need to talk to you. And Hearing my dad's side of it, now I know that he listened to that voicemail and he thought that I was a doctor's office. 

26:15

He'd been waiting for some doc, some results from a doctor's office. But he thought it was really strange that I didn't like name the facility I was with. So he was like well, I'm just gonna call her back. And so he calls me back and he was like is this Tiffany? And I was like this is Tiffany. And he was like this is I'm gonna say my dad's name now, because I'm very proud of him. I'm very proud of to have be his daughter. His name is Bo Allen and he said this is Bo Allen. He said this is Bo and my dad has a rural country, southern North Louisiana accent. And I said my name is Tiffany. I was born November 2nd 1980. I believe that you're my father. And he said well, hold on a minute, now it is. 

26:55

He said who's your mama? And I told him Stacy, and I told him her maiden name, what it would have been at the time, which was a different name, and kind of gave him and he said Well, like this, the coolest conversation I ever had of he is like I'm your dad, like he knew. So what I know now is that my dad suspected He'd heard that this girl had had twins and he was Mutually friends with my aunt, my mom's sister. They had some mutual friends and he'd asked around and he was like well, those babies are they mine? People are like no, they can't be. And so he he let it go. But the crazy things, as we grew up in Springhill, he had been living in Shongaloo. 

27:45 - Melissa (Host)

Oh, my god, my life and for people who aren't from that area listening. That's only 20 minutes down the road, if that really he, the church I grew up in. 

27:57 - Tiffany (Host)

He would have to drive by every single day of his whole life going to work, because that's that road going out to Shongaloo. He said, well, I gotta talk to him here, I gotta talk to my wife. And so he caught. He says I can I call you tomorrow, can I call you later tonight or tomorrow, when I was absolutely. I get a text message from my sister Lindsay later that day and says my dad told or maybe it's not timelines fuzzy she, she messaged me later to reach out and just say like I'm except you, like I'm so excited to have another sister, all of these things. 

28:28

And my stepmom never missed a beat like she was, like you know, we always thought that maybe you were and you know. And Right away my dad went and visited my brother's grave and like they go there often to put flowers out and for my dad just to pay his respects for the son he never got to meet. Um, since then my sister Amanda was a little bit slower coming along with it because she is a Brilliant mind and very cerebral and she needed to wrap her mind around this in her own way. But at Thanksgiving that same year. So this was in October, I would say run in October, and at Thanksgiving she called me to wish me happy Thanksgiving and she and I hit it off and actually she and I are most similar to me and then me and all my sisters and we are very, very close. I talked to her probably every day. 

29:14

Dad and stepmom never missed a beat and neither did the whole whole extended family have an aunt Shea, and um, Georgia, who I've never met, but she messages me regularly, sends me cards often and I look exactly like her. I know exactly what I'm gonna look like when I'm 60 Because I look identical to my aunt Shea, which is pretty cool. My other half aunts and uncles also, um, it just, it's just pretty cool how it all kind of Just filled in all those pieces missing, pieces of my life. So when did you meet him in person? Christmas that same year, so, and this was pre-covid Right, yeah, pre-covid 2019, the year I turned 39. We had we drove my ex husband and I we were still married then with our children drove down to Louisiana and um met him and my stepmom and my sisters and one of my sisters. 

30:12

The other sister was out of town and it was like An very emotional moment for he and I. My dad and I just stood out in his driveway Holding each other. He's incredibly tall man and he just like absorbed me and just wept and just like it felt like just all these parts to my life came together in that moment. The crazy thing is that my baby, my youngest boy to have four children my youngest boy, Jabez, he's my only natural born son and we can talk more about that a little bit. But Jabez does not look at all like my ex-husband's family and I remember my ex husband said one time like it's hard to know who he looks like. I don't recognize this child and he has really strong genetics. His family, my daughter, looks just like them and so it was really bizarre. 

31:04

But when he met my dad it it was like, oh, that's who he looks like. My son looks like an alan. He is tall and slender, just like my dad. He looks exactly like my dad in the face, same exact eye spacing. I mean he, he looks like he. We compare pictures of my dad when he was a child to my son and it's just uncanny how much they look like. So, yeah, that was incredibly incredible moment and the fact that he I got everything that I wanted. I wanted to know Plus more. My dad is incredibly supportive of me and so loving and kind and Regrets a lot that he couldn't be there for me. But I don't again hold that against anyone not my mother, not my father. It's that to me. There's no point in holding on to any kind of resentments for that. So I have my family now and I'm glad that I didn't wait too long. 

31:52 - Melissa (Host)

I love that story and it's like all these little puzzle pieces that just kind of fell in a place, with just realizing who you look like, who your son looks like is. Yeah, and it's just crazy to think that you know You've raised your son and all along he looked just like your dad and you didn't even realize it till. 

32:12 - Tiffany (Host)

You know, Jabez, when Jabez was born it for the first time it felt like a part of me was here, because I lost my twin brother and didn't have my dad and Jabez was biologically mine, like biologically related to me and Part. I always wonder like, did he look like Zachary? Like if Zachary was healthy, what he looked like Jabez? They had that piece come together and know like well, they look like dad. That was incredibly powerful. I believe everything works out for a reason and to me, there's just so many miracles. Isn't as many hardship as I faced, struggles and difficulties, I have faced as many miracles, oh, I love that last question about your dad. 

32:53 - Melissa (Host)

It sounds like I know the answer to this already, but did he live up to your expectations of what you always hoped your father would be like? 

33:01 - Tiffany (Host)

Um, you know, as at his character, yes, I did not have any Anticipations about who, what he would do for a living or what lifestyle he would leave Lead or anything like any of those things, because I didn't have any frame of reference. But I had a hope that he would be good in kind and generous and funny, and he's all of those things and he's good and kind and generous and funny. And my dad has his own set of stories and miracles and he loves his family and, yes, he, he does. He does meet all of those expectations, whatever they may have been. 

33:44 - Melissa (Host)

Oh, so you got your ice cream story after all. 

33:47 - Tiffany (Host)

I did Yep, I don't know that. If I had asked for, or my dad, if I had been able to paint that picture, if I would have been, if I would have Been as content as I am with who he is, if that makes sense. Yeah, crazy story, Melissa. My second grade home room teacher, Mrs. Denman Is my aunt, is my great aunt, and I never, I never knew, and she never knew either, and I I think about that, a lot like that. That lives written free in my mind. I sat in second grade all those year first grade Excuse me, first grade she was my first grade teacher, mrs. Somebody else with my second grade first grade teacher at Browning Missed in. Mrs Denman's husband Was my grandfather's brother. 

34:31 - Melissa (Host)

I think we were in that same class. I think she was my first grade teacher also. 

34:36 - Tiffany (Host)

Actually, not my grandfather, my grandmother's Brother. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy, I know, and that's what it's like being a little growing up in a small town, right, yeah. 

34:47 - Melissa (Host)

There's probably, yeah, lots of family all around. That you just didn't realize. 

34:52 - Tiffany (Host)

Our ninth grade math teacher, Miss Burton, did her DNA testing much later in life and we are also related, oh really. 

35:04 - Melissa (Host)

Oh, that's crazy. I know, um, I'm not from there, so I'm not related to any of the people there. 

35:11 - Tiffany (Host)

Well, I didn't think I was like anybody either. Yeah. 

35:16 - Melissa (Host)

Going back, we kind of fast-forwarded a little bit to talk about your dad. But going back, you go off to college and meet your ex-husband and you guys get married and then you start trying to plan a family. So can you take me back to that time, to the emotional journey when you realized you had infertility problems? 

35:41 - Tiffany (Host)

Yeah, I'll go back a little bit further. Um in, I knew all along in high school I had female issues. It was very obvious at a very early age and when I was 19, pre-marriage, I had some serious female issues and had saw a doctor and was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome. And it was so severe even at 19 years old that the doctor then said it will be highly unlikely if you ever conceive. So I knew that going into marriage and so, but I was a person of faith and I just believed that I would be a mom. I felt like that was really promised to me through a lot of just some different confirmations over the years, like I just knew I was supposed to be a mom and I knew I would be a mom. And so John and I had been married two years when I kind of pushed heavily for us to start trying to conceive. So I was like if this is going to be problematic for me, we probably should start early and immediately. It was working with a reproductive endocrinologist because I had that pre-diagnosis a polycystic ovarian syndrome and this doctor reiterated what my original doctor had said, like it's going to be highly unlikely for you to ever conceive. So that was in 2004. 

37:05

And then by 2006, we'd been married four years at that point and I had all I had undergone I'm sorry, by 2007, I had undergone 10 rounds of clomid, four rounds of injectables. I had exhausted all of my personal resources, insurance caps, and my father-in-law had actually also invested some money in trying to help us financially afford medication, fertility drugs, et cetera. Iui, intra-utero insemination was the plan with the injectables. But I rejected the injectables. My body did not respond to those at all. I could not get my ovaries to stimulate enough to ovulate, and so they said IUI is going to be a waste of a lot of money because we can't even get you to ovulate to do that. And so, and we knew IVF would be the next round. But IVF is very expensive. We were young newlyweds who were in pastoral ministry, and so it was not financially feasible. And so it broke my heart, it destroyed my faith, that I had to make a decision to stop trying to conceive. 

38:21 - Melissa (Host)

When I started trying to get pregnant with Juliette, I was also diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome. It took us a year and a half to conceive and I only was able to conceive because they paired Clomid with Metformin. Did they try that with you? 

38:39 - Tiffany (Host)

Yes, I had all 10 rounds of Clomid where Metformin were on Metformin as well, and in fact Clomid is not supposed to be used that many rounds. Yeah, I did that. Later I changed doctors. I moved from North Dakota to Missouri and then in Missouri changed doctors again, and that doctors could not believe my records and how much Clomid I had been using. I mean, not only did they keep letting me repeat it, but they kept jacking up the dosing. 

39:11 - Melissa (Host)

Which is not helping the situation if you're not ovulating. 

39:14 - Tiffany (Host)

Exactly, exactly. So he's the one who just said no more Clomid, no more Metformin. We're going to go a different route. And that's when I started the IUI, and there were some other cocktail medications that I tried at that point. 

39:29 - Melissa (Host)

At what point did you start looking into fostering? 

39:34 - Tiffany (Host)

Adoption's always been, was always a part of mine and my ex-husband's plan. We thought we might adopt internationally. But when we were living in Missouri we became friends with some people who were involved in the Missouri foster care system and so we were like maybe a distraction would be nice. We have this home. We were living in a home where we were just a couple, no kids, and we could foster some kids for a while until we either decided to adopt or figure out that route, and so we did the foster parenting classes and then, on the tail end of that, we also did foster adopt classes and we were told we'll get you foster kids, but there's no way you're ever going to adopt a baby from the foster care system who isn't sick, attached to a bunch of siblings and free for adoption. It just is impossible. And so we were like okay, and we just started taking in foster kids. Our first set where I set up sibling girls, and then they left us and we got a 12-year-old girl, and so we started getting foster kids. 

40:48 - Melissa (Host)

I guess I'm kind of jumping around here, because I feel like I kind of glazed over the whole emotional part of realizing that you're not going to have children, naturally. Did you at that time like when the doctor said this is just not going to happen? Were you like, okay, this really isn't going to happen? Or were you still like, no, I'm not giving up. Maybe I'll give up for a little bit, but I'm not giving up hope. 

41:15 - Tiffany (Host)

The doctor. He told we got the. So we got a phone call from the doctor who said you just aren't responding at all to these injections. We need to schedule you for an IVF consultation. And I told him on the phone. I said there's no way I can afford that. My body cannot endure that and emotionally I am not ready for I, emotionally, am exhausted from this. My marriage was suffering. I mean, when you have marital relations on a schedule to try to conceive, it is not romantic, it is not healthy and there was just so many parts to that and so I called it off. 

41:49

I made that decision and it was heart-wrenching but I knew it was the right thing to do. And something about me is that anytime I set my mind on anything, I just like fully focused that and so I just shifted. I was like, well, if I can't be a mom to a natural born child, I'm going to shift my focus to foster parenting and be the best foster mom that I can be to any kid. That comes to me. Being a mom is the goal. Pregnancy not required is kind of what I started saying to people. 

42:17

But I'll be honest, there were so many times where I would weep in church like praying. I remember Christmas of 2007 was the hardest Christmas I ever had. I remember putting in my Christmas tree, christmas decorations, listening Christmas music and just having a breakdown On my knees praying. You spoke Christ into Mary's womb with the word, and all I'm asking is for medical science, miracle here. And just not understanding. 

42:48

And there was a song at the time. It's a very popular praise and worship song, contemporary praise and worship song that says I believe you're my healer, and my husband and I would just play that over and over and over again and speak it over me and pray and pray and pray over that. And it just wasn't happening. And we even had like a prophet in church like say, like God's promising to heal you, and it wasn't happening. And my faith was shaken. My husband had greater faith than I did, I probably but it just felt like maybe I just didn't hear from God, Maybe all those promises of being able to conceive were just not. I just missed it. 

43:25

And okay, now let's just move along, let's just do this next, next right thing, and that was foster parenting. I read all the books, I did all the Bible studies. One thing I never did, though, was harden my heart and I just knew that I couldn't let myself go there Again. We talked about depression earlier. It was probably another dark time of my life when we were going through infertility treatments and here's a deal people talk about. Month after month, I was disappointed. Well, month after month, I was still just like living my life. My period wouldn't come and it would be like nothing else is happening. It was like I can't even get that let down. It was so frustrating with polycystic ovarian syndrome, but I just needed just like focus my attention on this next thing, which was the foster parenting. 

44:13 - Melissa (Host)

With fostering. That sounds like you have a lot of kids come and go. Did you have to kind of prep yourself? I cannot get attached to these kids. Were you trying? Did you want to Like I can't have my own, I'm just going to bond with these kids, and then that made it harder for them to leave. Or were you like real unemotional about it? I think it would be hard for me. 

44:43 - Tiffany (Host)

I'm nothing if not a realist, and I was very realistic in that the state's goal is always reunification. And so I knew that. And so I changed my mindset. Instead of fostering kids, I was fostering families, holding space for children, loving them the best way I could as a foster parent, while their parents got their poop in a group and got them back. Like that was the goal. 

45:06

And so when I changed my focus from being a foster mom to fostering families, it helped me form an attachment that was healthy but also able to happily allow children to go home with their parents, which is where they should be right. Yeah, I mean, studies show I know now, studies show that children who are raised by families of origin are most healthy, and so, if it's a healthy home life, and so that was kind of our mindset. And so, and because we'd always had our back of our mind, like the state was really good about saying, like these kids are for fostering, it's going to be short term, or these kids are going to be fostering, it might be a little bit longer term. They're going to solve rights or visits with their parents, or parents still have rights, and so that helps kind of buffer the expectation that they're going to stay forever. 

45:51 - Melissa (Host)

When did that turn into an adoption for you? 

45:53 - Tiffany (Host)

So at that point John and I had fostered like two little girls. We had a 12 year old girl that had been moved and we had gone through a really difficult time in our life because my ex husband had lost his job. We had moved to towns and we were just kind of getting settled in. At that point he was working two jobs to replace the one he lost and we were kind of just getting settled in. I worked for the state of Missouri at that time and I got a call from one of my co-workers, a DHS worker. I did not work for that department, I just lady I knew in the office just said hey, I've got a two day old baby here at the hospital that needs a home. Can you take him? And I was like, yep, you could bring him over as soon as possible. And at this time I had nothing for an infant. I did not have a crib, I did not have anything to my name for an infant because at that point we'd been told you're never going to get an infant Number two. All the kids we'd had up at that point were older. And then I called my husband and I said hey, they're going to bring a two day old baby from the hospital. I hope that's okay. And he was like, well, did you? Say yes? And I'm like, yep, I did. And so they brought this baby home in the car seat wearing an ER sleeper. And he was sleeping and she just sets the carrier down on my living room floor and I take a step back and I'm looking at him and she said you can hold him. And I was like, oh God, I would love to hold him. So I pick him up out of his car seat and I just hold him and she's like we don't know what's happening. I'm going to get him to the court tomorrow for adjudication, which adjudication is basically the plan where the courts decide is this child? Does the state have grounds to keep this child in foster care? So, long story short, adjudication came and went and the child was left in foster care with us. 

47:35

So two day old baby boy placed in our home with no advance notice. No advance notice. He was a foster child. He was still having visits with his biological parents at two days old and he was going to daycare. I still worked full time. I didn't get a maternity leave, I didn't get anything else when he was four months old. 

47:54

So when that baby was four months old we got another call from our adoption case manager. So this is a different phone call. The foster placements are usually like from a foster placement worker. But when you get a phone call from your adoption worker that says a different fill and she said hey, check your email. I just sent over the profile for a seven month old baby boy who is free for adoption. I think he'd be great for your family, or I think your family would be great for him. I pulled up my email at work and my hand flew to my mouth and I said out loud that's my son. 

48:28

I knew in my gut that that baby was supposed to be mine and I sent over immediately our intent, our staffing request. So at that time in the state of Missouri you have to have a staffing. That means they have interviews. A big team of a panel of individuals interview potential parents for children to be adopted in this way. John and I got to the call and said we would love to staff you guys, but we want you to know that his current foster family is also going to staff him. And that was heart wrenching to know because basically they don't want to disrupt children more than often. 

49:08

Seven months old, he'd been with this family since birth. That didn't look great for us and so, but they were older. Dad was the foster father was six, over 60, retired, and foster mom was in her late fifties. They were grandparent age and not parent age. And so they just said well, the state has to make the decision based on what's best on the child. And so we went to Joplin, Missouri, and did the staffing. 

49:29

Now I am considering myself a very articulate person. I'm a professional, educated. My ex-husband was a pastor and so he was also articulate. We do well in these kinds of situations. This is our time to shine. We are public speakers by nature and we biffed it. 

49:46

He and I walked out of that staffing and looked at each other and said that didn't go very well, did it? And we were like no, like we didn't, we were nervous, we don't know, like we just weren't on our best. And so we they just said, well, you'll hear from us either by five o'clock tonight or yeah. And so five o'clock came and went and we didn't hear anything. We drove back home it was like two hour drive home. We didn't hear anything, and I just reckoned out of my mind that it wasn't meant to be, that his foster parents were going to be adopting him and that was okay. 

50:19

And I got a call the next day while I was at work again from the adoption worker and he was like hey, just want to let you know. And in my gut, like I let it sit in, he was about to tell me they chose somebody else. And he said we did choose you. And I say you did like D I D did. And he said we did. And I was like oh my gosh, you've just made me like the happiest person in the world. 

50:42

So we set up from there. We set up all these things to, because you have to have like so many visits with the child before they can place the child in your home permanently. And so it was like going back and forth Joplin, Missouri to see him. And after the second visit I actually advocated, I said he's seven months old, he doesn't know, don't make me take my son home again or take him back to his foster family again. And they were like okay, and so we brought him home seven months old. Mind you, we still have four month old infant in our home for foster care. And this was in October, yeah, September, October time. And then we took in like 14-inch girls, oh my goodness. Two of them were just for respite care and two of them were for foster placement, and then one of them left, and then we were down to one. 

51:35

Were they helping you with the babies at least. Yeah, I was holding them, but that was about all the help they were. But that Christmas that was in 2007,. I missed, yeah, 2008. Christmas 2008,. I have a nine-month-old at that point, or no, six-month-old and a five-month-old. Anyway, six-month-old and my timing's off. At Christmas that year it was a happy Christmas, as you can imagine. 

51:59

Two babies and all the family wanted to come see the babies. The first adopted child's parents voluntarily terminated their rights and at that point that means they say this child has to go back into the system because they're a ward of the state and now they have to go back in the system as like free for adoption, so they have to do a staffing all over again. Well, we'd had him since birth, and so we were. Obviously we had a preferential, but they and so there's a lot of red tape, a lot of bureaucratic red tape. But long story short, in March of 2009, after the state had told us you'll never get a child who's not attached to a sibling group, you'll never get a baby and you'll never get a baby, that's well, we adopted two babies in March of 2009. Within two weeks of each other, we finalized adoptions, which is nothing short of a miracle, because the state of Missouri requires 18 months waiting for adoptions. But we, we waved the 18 months for our new baby because he was placed with us at birth two days old, and so they waved that. And we waved, the state waved the other 18 month wait because that child was considered abandoned by the state because the biological parents had left the state and didn't respond to service mail. And so we we adopted. 

53:16

By then, Benjamin, that's our oldest son, was a month, a year and a month old, and Devin was nine months old, and those are our now 15 year old sons. And nothing short of a miracle that during that time, the, the pain and the suffering of infertility became very clear to me that this was why, for such a time as this you know that time that just sticks out to me. Like, had I conceived, I would not have pursued foster care. Had I not for perceived foster care, I would not have been ready for two babies to come to me at the time that they needed to be, because they were all meant, they all their timing was all made up already, and so I knew, and I was perfectly fine with that. I was like, okay, I accept that I know, I know now it's supposed to be a mom and I was supposed to be on to these two babies and to me that that that made not to diminish my own feelings, because my feelings are very real, but it was healing to me to be a mom to these boys. 

54:14 - Melissa (Host)

So you did go on to have two babies biologically? Tell me about that. 

54:21 - Tiffany (Host)

Fast forward five years. Devin started praying to Jesus please put a baby in my mom's tummy and we thought it was adorable, because he is adorable, and he would then started praying for a sister. During that time, John and I actually got separated. We were separated for six months. Our marriage was not healthy. There was some things that happened and we separated for six months and we got back together November of 2012. 

54:51

And in April of 2013, I was working in a daycare and I'd been running a lot, getting really healthy, like just really concentrating on my physical health. I just wanted to be super fit for my children. For the boys, they were five and they were five years old and I just are almost, yeah, five years old, and I just want to be super healthy for them. And I remember telling my coworker like I am just dragging, and she's like you're pregnant and I'm like no, that's hilarious because it's been at this point in time, if you want to do the math, he and I had been married for 12 or 10 years and never used contraception. I mean, we never protected against, because I was infertile and I took a pregnancy test and I was pregnant. He was out of town with the boys and it in Des Moines with his parents, and I called him on the phone and I said I just took a pregnancy test and I'm pregnant. He was like no way. And I, yeah, and I sent him a picture and we couldn't believe it. And the boys, of course, were like well, we've been praying, you're like well, jesus answered our prayers. We did that, you know, and we were like okay, and so we waited until Father's Day, 2012, 2013,. Excuse me, John was a pastor, senior pastor, and that's my ex-husband is a senior pastor. 

56:08

At that point, I was 12 weeks pregnant 12 weeks. I was out of the first trimester, we were in the clear and I had put together this beautiful slideshow about redemption and two people who fell in love and got married and had infertility and adopted two babies and had a separation and almost divorced. And now we're having a baby of redemption. Like that's what we thought and everybody in our church was so happy for us. It was just so emotional. The whole world celebrated with us. People literally all over the world celebrated with us at the announcement of our pregnancy at 12 weeks. That was on Sunday, and on Tuesday I went to the doctor for my regular follow up and there was no heartbeat. 

56:50 - Melissa (Host)

Oh. 

56:51 - Tiffany (Host)

I remember lying there watching my doctor frantically trying to find the heartbeat on the ultrasound and there's nothing moving. And in my mind I just thought it was a still shot like pictures, and I said, well, can't like just do it to ultrasound? And John was like she's not moving, there's no heartbeat. And my doctor gave me a moment. And the worst part, the most horrifying moment of my life at that point was my doctor leaving the room I'm getting dressed. A lady next to me is having the ultrasound of her baby and I could hear her baby's heartbeat and I had just been told my baby was dead and I could hear her baby's heart beating and my husband covered my ears with his hands and like buried me in his chest to protect me from that. And I remember just wailing and I couldn't understand, like all these years of waiting, so much contentment, I did not even have it on my radar that we'd ever conceive. Why would I be given this opportunity only to have it snatched for me? I didn't understand that and I remember just saying like I don't understand, I don't understand. And I had to have a DNC. The next morning we had to tell our little boys that the baby sister that they prayed for was gone. We had opted to do genetic testing. I knew in my heart she was a girl and I was right. But we also found out that had a blood clotting disorder and that's what killed her. And my doctor was incredibly gracious and wonderful and beautiful. He was just a loving man and he was so sympathetic towards me and he just said we're not going to give up hope. And I said that's not a thing for me anymore, like I named my baby Hope because I told my husband Hope died. 

58:41

The first time in my life I had hope that I'd be a mom. I conceived naturally and she died. We named her Hope, Hope Salome, which means hope and peace. That was in June. We lost her and after DNC they're like don't even don't have intercourse for six or eight weeks, especially after my condition. And I remember like we were tracking it on account on a calendar and I had ran a 5k race. We were at his mom's house, like stated on his mom's house in Des Moines. We were do what married people do and I conceived again immediately. I didn't know it, obviously right away, but I remember getting that fear and so this time we waited 16 weeks until we got a big green light Like everything was healthy, things were good. 

59:34

Jabez's due date was the one year anniversary to the day we lost our baby Hope. He was born two weeks early, on June 4th, but by emergency. But he really was a miracle and I was like this, is it three boys? This is the way life is supposed to be. And I did not know that I could conceive while I was breastfeeding and 13 months later Lydia was born. I'd tell people I was pregnant for three Christmases in a row or three sorry, three Easter's in a row, like bam, bam bam. I tell people who struggle with infertility like I can't make rhyme or reason of it, I wouldn't attempt to. I just know losing weight is scientifically why. Probably I started jumpstarted ovulation, having the baby that I lost, plus finding out I had the blood clotting disorder. They were able to intervene with that as soon as I found I was pregnant. They were able to provide intervention for that and save the baby's life. So we I believe that I lost hope in order to save the other two. 

01:00:40 - Melissa (Host)

So what other advice would you give to women who who are struggling with infertility or dealing with a loss of a pregnancy? 

01:00:51 - Tiffany (Host)

Infertility is not solved by relaxing, it is not solved by just adopting, and it'll happen. And if anyone ever tries to dismiss your feelings, I have words to say for that that aren't public appropriate. But your feelings are valid and feel all of that Like to me. I felt like there were so many times where I was just my feelings were devalued. People are like, oh, it'll happen when it's supposed to happen and just relax, just give it time. 

01:01:24

I had a woman tell me one time who had suffered this is suffered year many, many, many, many miscarriages. She said the Lord opens the womb and the Lord closes the womb, and that was the most hurtful thing that anyone had ever said to me. She was telling me that God did this to me and I didn't believe that. I couldn't accept that, and so my advice would be to just let yourself feel all of that. Just feel it all the grief, the loss. It is an actual form of grief. Being infertile and miscarriage obviously is the loss of your baby, a loss of part of you, and so to feel all that is valid. So that would be my biggest piece of advice, I think. 

01:02:04 - Melissa (Host)

I know that when anytime grief is involved if it's a miscarriage or somebody who's lost their grandfather or a range of ages of loss in the grief that goes along with that a lot of us don't know what to say and we just resort to saying stupid stuff that comes out of our mouths without thinking what is appropriate to say to somebody who has lost a baby. 

01:02:31 - Tiffany (Host)

I think saying I don't know what to say is appropriate. I don't know what to say. I'm here for you. I don't know what to say, but I love you. I think it's valid to own that. I think we try to explain things, we try to give reason, we try to have the right things to say and a lot of times we do more harm than good. And the reality of it is what can you say? There's nothing to be said that takes away that pain. And so to say that, to own that nothing I can say is going to make this better. One of the most powerful things that happened to me after my miscarriage was my best friend. Annie came to my house with Mexican food and chocolate and she sat on my couch. She didn't say anything. We just ate. She didn't have to say anything she said to me. That was a more powerful message to me than any words anybody could have ever given me after that loss, and that's enough. 

01:03:27 - Melissa (Host)

You had called your marriage unhealthy. How long were you guys married for, and was it always unhealthy? 

01:03:35 - Tiffany (Host)

18 years, I would say yeah, I was unhealed from childhood trauma. I went into a marriage wounded. We weren't prepared for marriage. We were very young. I think about it now. Who lets 21-year-old kids get married? I don't know. 

01:03:51

I was 19 when I got married and I say the same thing 21 years old I was getting married and we were in Bible college, so there was a lot of pressure to do just that. So pastors weren't going out in pastoral ministry single. John and I dated for two years and I thought I knew him, he thought he knew me, and turns out we knew versions of each other. There were good, good times I mean when I tell these stories about those boys being adopted and our babies being conceived beautiful, happy memories, but they're still spattered with a lot of unhealthy things. Things did not start going really poorly until after we probably started trying to conceive. We'd probably been married three or four years at that point, when things started being very obviously unhealthy. 

01:04:43

Toxic is the word. I hate that word because it's a buzzword, but coming from an abusive childhood, things seem normal. Toxic behaviors seem normal because that's all I knew. And then when I started, I started being open to just how unhealthy things were. You know it was really bad and, like I said, it wasn't all bad. It wasn't always bad, but there was a lot of bad always, or there was some bad always, if that makes sense. 

01:05:10 - Melissa (Host)

You said before you got pregnant you had split up for a little bit, but after that point where you completely reconciled and there weren't any more split ups until you decided to get divorced- so we were separated for six months and when we reconciled, we were committed to staying married. 

01:05:30 - Tiffany (Host)

We were married another eight years at that point and I genuinely did not intend to ever divorce. I grew up in a family of a lot of generations of multiple divorces. I did not want to be another one of those statistics. We were pastoral ministers, so that was not heard of and not I mean, the church just does not talk about, just does not do a good job about talking about divorce. There's a lot of toxic messages about the grounds for divorce, and so that kept me staying for a long time. And then, after COVID, during COVID, things went terribly wrong and I will say that my ex-husband is a good father. He and I are much better co-parents than we were ever husband and wife. I would say that to him right now. He's my friend at best right now, but in 2020, during COVID, while we're all on COVID restrictions, church is online. 

01:06:32

There was a lot of stuff going on and I had asked for a separation and he refused to give me a separation. He said something to me and I won't share it here because I feel like it's private for me, but it was that moment I knew like in my mind, we're done, we don't come back from this. And so, unbeknownst to him, I started the process of I consulted with an attorney, I started sucking some money away, changed bank accounts so like my direct deposits were being filtered and started doing some due diligence. Backstory I worked as a domestic violence advocate for a year for a year, a few years prior and I knew how to safety plan and so I started doing that for myself and I wanted to get through the holidays that year and wanted to give my kids a good Thanksgiving and Christmas, and the first day my kids went back to school. 

01:07:26

After Christmas vacation 2021, my attorney served him divorce papers. He was forced out. It was horrible. For two weeks my kids could not see their dad and that was really that's a big regret I have. It was just a lot. He and I couldn't speak. He couldn't get any answers, but I had warned him. I'd been telling him like for months, like we don't come back from this, and so divorce was finalized approximately six months later. 

01:07:51 - Melissa (Host)

How is your husband now? Is he back in a pastoral role? 

01:07:56 - Tiffany (Host)

No, but he serves at his local church. He has the kids involved in church. They are active churchgoers. He's gainfully employed. He just suffered a terrible car accident this last October and almost a year ago and broke his back and it was eye-opener for both of us. It really changed our relationship in that there's bigger fish surprise than other than the water under the bridge. So our relationship improved after that mostly. 

01:08:24 - Melissa (Host)

I love that you say that you all co-parent. Well, sometimes you don't see that, and when I do see that, it's just very inspiring, because I know it's probably hard. 

01:08:36 - Tiffany (Host)

We communicate pretty well, there's some things he digs his hills in about and there's some things I dig my hills in about, but overall I say we do OK. 

01:08:44 - Melissa (Host)

When you divorce a pastor. How does that affect? 

01:08:46 - Tiffany (Host)

your faith, never been mad at God, never really questioned my faith in him or quite faith in Christ. Faith in people is definitely. You know. I remember having a moment where I just looked back and I thought all the people who've ever hurt me in my life or people who call themselves Christians and that's huge that was a hard thing, hard pill of swallow, and I also have to understand that, as much as I need redemption and grace, so to all the people around me, all the people that have hurt me, so in my faith is never wavering in God. 

01:09:19

But I don't attend church the way my mom would probably prefer. I encourage my kids in their own faith and, whatever that looks like. They do attend a Christian school at their dad's insistence. I would prefer not that not to be the case for a lot of different reasons, not necessarily because of the faith. But when you divorce a pastor, I think the big thing is you really share with church people and changes. 

01:09:42

All the people, most of the people, I should say, who were in the church, who called me their friend I was their pastor's wife Were nowhere to be found when I was going through that really hard time, through a divorce, and that was a struggle. So were you basically outcast yeah, I mean not out. They didn't verbalize that we were already out of the church because we lost his job. But then a lot of our contact with them kind of came to an end. When I filed for divorce I remember crying in my therapist's office telling her how isolated I was. My entire family was in Louisiana. The only family I have here in Iowa are my in-laws, and blood is thicker than water. So they say. And I remember telling her I have no one. And she was like no one and I'm like, nope, she's like, who am I? And I'm like my therapist and she's like, let's start here. And I've given that same message to other women. From there I developed some close relationships with some coworkers and then from there some mutual friends of people I knew. And then when I entered the dating scene that kind of changed the looks of my friendship, my friend groups too. 

01:10:45

It's so hard as an adult to make friends. It is. There's an app now called Peanut the Peanut app. Oh, really, it's like it's for women to find female friends. I might need to use that. I'm great at making friends. I've never had a problem making friends. I was being willing to put myself out there because, being a pastor's wife, I was always trained and felt so guarded and letting myself be very vulnerable because people couldn't see our dark and scary, and so that's what the big hurdle was for me, and making friends was like just letting all that subside and just saying this is just who I am, I'm just Tiffany, I'm nobody's wife, I'm not a pastor's wife, I'm not. I'm just me. And figuring out who that is was a big part of that. But just when I started just presenting myself as authentic as possible, that was a game changer for me and making friends that kind of goes into my next question. 

01:11:44 - Melissa (Host)

I know for many people when they divorce it often seems like they have this period of personal growth and self-discovery. And I can see the happiness in you. You look so much happier now. How has divorce changed you? 

01:12:03

Going through the divorce was also on the tail end of graduate school, which was incredibly empowering. Also had weight loss surgery, which was also incredibly empowering, taking back my health, and I think that with the divorce it gave me a sense of. 

01:12:18

I've been with this man since I was a child, 19 years old. 

01:12:21

We met married at 21. My entire adult life up until that point was revolved around him, and so it gave me a sense of rediscovery of who I am things like what kind of music do I really like, what kind of movies do I really want to watch and it was empowering but also incredibly trying because I had to be self-sufficient for the first time in my life. But I'm a lot stronger than I ever really realized and I've been through hell and back in my lifetime and all of those things just culminated to this is my moment to shine. I didn't go through all of that to be a weak person, and so divorce was just another one of those things that gave me a sense of power. This is just another thing that I'm going to get through, and to me it was really just a matter of figuring out what that looked like who Tiffany is single to, who Tiffany is, as a mom with their dad in the home, being happy was never about not having him but, for the first time in my life, having me Wow. 

01:13:31 - Melissa (Host)

You're saying so many things that I'm like, oh, that's so good, I can tell you're a therapist, yeah. 

01:13:37 - Tiffany (Host)

Yeah, yeah. 

01:13:43 - Melissa (Host)

So last thing, I know you recently went through a heartbreak and a reconciliation. Can you tell us about that? 

01:13:52 - Tiffany (Host)

Yeah. So after the divorce and I'll be honest, I entered the dating scene while I was still separated. It just felt like when the kids were with their dad, the house was so lonely. And so, at prompting of several of my friends some of my girlfriends actually create my coworkers created my first dating profile and I hated it so I deleted it and I was like, well, if we're going to do this, we're going to do this. So, being in dating for the first time in 20-something years, like crazy, and so I was completely lost and but on Facebook dating of all things and I had talking to a few people and on this one particular Wednesday I was talking to a guy and just kind of doing the thing, going back and forth, like getting to know each other, talking about likes and dislikes, and blah, blah, blah. 

01:14:48

I worked on Wednesdays at that time, I worked 12-hour days, and so I had stopped by Chick-fil-A and I picked up an iced tea and got to my work parking lot and dropped this tea and spilled it everywhere and I was so mad and I remember just pulling out my phone and texting the first person I had been talking to, which was him, and said I just dropped my tea and I just wanted a tea. And he's like, I'll bring you a tea. And I was like, would you really? And this, for me, was like a little like this is my personality showing a little bit and I was like, oh OK, I didn't think he really would, but I was going to let him try. And he did. I didn't know it at the time. He lived 45 minutes away. He drove 45 minutes to go through Chick-fil-A drive-thru and bring me an iced tea. And so that's the first time we met. 

01:15:33

Craig and I met and I remember, walking back in, I walked to his car. He said we just had pleasantries and he gave me my tea and he drove off. It was nothing. I mean, I was very attracted to him immediately. And I walk in and my co-worker I said, oh girl, I'm in trouble. And she's like why? And I was like I don't know there's something there. 

01:15:54

And Craig and I dated. It was very quickly. I knew he was the one I wanted to be with. So I deleted my Facebook dating app and I just told all these other poor unsuspecting suckers Like it was not going to work out. And we started dating and it was exclusive and we met each other's kids pretty quickly, and I lived in a larger metro area and he lives in a smaller rural area outside of the Des Moines area and I had just finished graduate school. I was looking for a therapy job. I was working as a substance abuse counselor and I found a job in his town. So then I started driving back and forth and he said, why don't we move in together? And I was like, oh boy, that's a big step. So I sold my home and me and the kids moved in with him and we got engaged. That was in December of 2021, by May of 2022. We were engaged to be married. He'd asked all the children if he could ask me to marry him and they all were like, yes, please. And so we got engaged in May and the plan was to get married in September of 2022. 

01:17:06

In August, Craig broke up with me and I had just had surgery, so I alluded to my weight loss surgery earlier. I'd had tummy tuck surgery to take off some extra skin. I was recovering. And he came in and just said I don't want to get married. This isn't right, I've got some things I need to work on. And the breakup lasted about two days before he finally just was like I'm done. 

01:17:37

I was absolutely devastated. It was probably the worst pain of my life. I think I grieved more from this breakup than I did my miscarriage from my infertility, from my divorce. I had kept hearing like you have three great loves of your life and I thought Craig was it. I thought he was the greatest love. I thought he was the greatest love of my life. I always knew like if I was going to be treated by a man in any kind of way, this was it. We were good Until the moment we broke up. We never had issues. We had great communication he made me laugh. We were best friends. We had no issues. All signs pointed to go Know, everyone in our whole world was blindsided. Our children, our best friends, our best friends did not even suspect anything. 

01:18:26

And I, for the probably the fourth time, I did not go through depression after my divorce, after my baby girl was born. I had some postpartum depression, but I went through a very serious depression. Probably for the third time I contemplated suicide in my lifetime, but because I thought how can I do this to my kids? How can I leave them homeless? How can I have done that? Because I sold my home to move in with him and he offered he's like you can stay here as long as you want. And I was like there's no way I'm staying here. And through coworkers I found a home I was able to purchase pretty quickly, got back on my feet and just do what I do. I just kept moving. And there's this adage people say do it scared. I tell my daughter a lot of the times. I tell other people you have to feel it on your feet. I did not have time to wallow, I just had to feel all that I was feeling. While on my feet. I had to keep moving, I had to keep working, I had to keep healing Until into that breakup, I moved into my new home. 

01:19:32

My nine-year-old son broke his arm, my 15-year-old son broke his ankle, their dad broke his back and it was just like I couldn't take anymore. I really I remember having a moment where I literally do not know how much more I can take and I've been through hell and back in my lifetime. But this is it for me. I can't endure anymore. I don't know how I'm going to keep on going. But I did. I just kept going. I showed up to work every day to show up for my clients and just did the things, just did the hard things, regardless of what that felt like. 

01:20:05

Long story short, I started dating again. Like my friends are like, just get back out there. And Craig and I had mutual friends. His best friends were my best friends and so after the breakup that remained true and so that was hard. But I still had a great group of friends who were very supportive of me and I still stayed in touch enough so that I could have the kids. Craig has three kids who are my kids' age and they're our best friends, and so I'd have them here and there. And then there'd be months where the kids went and see each other and we'd try to see them, get them together here and there, but back in. 

01:20:41

So I dated off and on here and there, and then July Craig messaged me and so, back story, I'd gotten some messages or my other friends were like hey, Craig's messaging us Apologies, like he's saying sorry. His ex-wife and I had developed a very, very close friendship so I could keep tabs on the kids. And she was like Craig apologize to me. And I was like mad. I'm like where's my apology? After everything we've been through and finally I got it and he just said I'm not going to say all the details, so that's his story to tell. But long story short, he did some soul searching, was in therapy and through our discussions he's like I just want to be friends so we can get the kids together. He never led with let's get back together or anything. It was just an apology, it was just remorseful and I kind of challenged that and I'm like, if you're so remorseful, I want to see your face, I want you to look me in the eyes when you're saying you're sorry. And so he did. 

01:21:33

He did a day trip with me one time. We talked a lot and by the end of that trip we knew we were still very much in love and wanted to try again, wanted to work it out. And we told the kids and they were like so happy. And I went on vacation with my kids right after that. We had just gotten back together and I left and it took me. I was gone a week and I took every moment of that vacation to really reflect. 

01:21:59

And is this really what I want to do? Is this risk, because when you've been hurt before, and to put yourself out there like shame me, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice. That's shame on me. And I knew that. I knew that, but I just could not shake this idea that where there's remorse and forgiveness and grace are and love still abounds, then I can give this a second chance. And that's where I was at. I still deeply love this man the greatest love of my life, I believe and I have so much forgiveness and grace for him. I want to give this a second chance. And so I knew. 

01:22:33

But I had to lay it all out for him and I just explained several things and Craig said I will sell my house tomorrow. I'll move wherever you want to move, we'll do whatever it takes. It's supposed to be me and you. And he did. He sold his house within the week. We bought a house the week after I got back from vacation. We actually just moved into it this last weekend. But in order to do that, he knew Like I wasn't going to take those risks again because I'm not a gambler. And so he said well then it only makes sense that we do what we were supposed to do a year ago and go get married. And so he did. We went to this beautiful historic courthouse down in Des Moines and I had a little dress ordered offline and took our two of our best friends and he and I went and got married at the courthouse on September 8. And yeah, so there's that. 

01:23:27 - Melissa (Host)

Congratulations. 

01:23:29 - Tiffany (Host)

Thank you very much. 

01:23:30 - Melissa (Host)

I'm glad that we get to end this on a happy note. I know that doesn't mean that you get to sail off into the sunset without any hardships ever again in your life. Reflecting back on everything you've been through, how do you feel about encountering hardships going forward? 

01:23:48 - Tiffany (Host)

I think that something that's really important for me is to not let hardships harden me. I've been hardened in the past and I just refuse to let that happen. I want to be happy and I choose happy, and no matter what hard things come my way, I refuse to let them determine who I am as a person. My trials don't dictate my character. I'm blessed because I get to be who I am in spite of all of that. Not necessarily because of all that, but in spite of all of that. And I'm grateful that my kids will get to see a mom who's been through a lot of hard things, who's still good, who's still kind and generous. And I get to pour into people on a daily basis in therapy to say, yeah, bad stuff happens. Bad stuff happens every day to good people, and you still get to choose to be good. 

01:24:38 - Melissa (Host)

Thank you so much for doing this. This was great. Thanks for joining us today on This Is My Story. If you'd like to be a guest on our show or know someone that has an inspiring story they'd like to share, please visit us online at thisismysstorypodcast.com and fill out the contact this form. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to hear more inspiring stories, make sure to hit the Subscribe button, and don't forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform. This has been Tiffany's Story. What's yours?